Can employer enter more documents into evidence for appeal or does she have to stick with what she used to fight the initial claims hearing?

by Julia
(New Jersey)

In NJ my boss told UI that I was fired for misconduct. (When she fired me she told me it was because our personalities clashed.) I was awarded my benefits during my initial claims hearing in which my employer submitted 25 pages of "evidence" against me. These pages were basically 3 mistakes she claimed that I made that cost her money.

First, I didn't make all of the mistakes, only one of them was a mistake I made and it was during the first week that I worked for her which I took responsibility for. Second, One of the issues wasn't even a mistake, rather a glitch in the email system that she said she was going to have fixed but never did. Another was an email I supposably sent to the wrong person. It wasn't brought to my attention while I worked for her, and both she and other employees had access to send and receive emails using my name so it could have been anyone that made the mistake.

I can't really prove that I didn't make ALL of the mistakes because I don't have access to the email account anymore. Even if I had made all of them, these issues didn't constitute the definition of misconduct as given by the NJDOL. There was no willful or deliberate viloation of rules and regulations that she has a right to expect of an employee therefore I was granted my benefits. Now she is appealing the decision.

Is she allowed to enter new "evidence" into the appeals hearing that she didn't enter into the claims examination hearing? She has a computer hacker on her payroll and since she has a history of "bending information" I'm afraid she will have him create new documents with old dates on them to make it look like it was willful misconduct on my part.




Hi,

Yes, she is allowed to enter additional documents for the hearing, but you can object to the admittance of the documents .. not that it would do any good, but your objection is now on the record .. in case of need for an appeal to the board of review.

I cannot even entertain what you are speculating about as far as the lengths you think she might go to .. but just in the brief little bit of information you gave me .. I'm wondering what good it do her since she has already submitted documents which were apparently dated after you were terminated.

I would ask her why now for the hearing .. why didn't she submit them at the time of her initial protest along with the other 25 documents?

Or are you talking about her having the dates changed on documents she has already submitted to the state claim department. You can access that file if I am not mistaken. Use it.

Bending the truth is one thing .. breaking laws is quite another and you are speculating that she will break laws to stop you from collecting UI benefits?

That .. would be nuts for her to do.

Chris

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Apr 22, 2011
update
by: Julia

So Chris, after all that worrying and preparing, my ex-employer failed to show up for 4 hearings and the NJDOL denied her last request for a new hearing date and declared the matter closed. What a relief! Thanks again for your help and advice. It really helped my focus and preparations!




And there you have it .. one of those types of employers that drove me up the wall and caused the guilt I always felt which was entirely associated with the fact that I thought of claimants as real people .. with real lives.

I'm very relieved for you ..

But now someone explain to me .. why NJ let them get away with this four times.


Feb 10, 2011
I needed a chuckle
by: Chris - Unemployment-tips

Hi Julia,

I needed a chuckle today .. some employers used to be employees. People will be people and the word employer does not imply a better quality person.

My bad about the dismissal. I forgot that NJ dismisses without prejudice .. just like NY.

But in your case it sounds like ppmt. requests were made.

For anyone else who doesn't get this .. it's procedural requirements .. which by the way, is state specific.

Most states require good cause reasons for a postponement. A party can still request the hearing be reopened, but there will always be a "non-appearance" issue listed on the new hearing notice if the reopening is granted.

But when a state dismisses without prejudice .. there's no need for the issue.

It sounds like you've got the employer cold .. and she's an idiot for creating false documentation against you.

Most hearing officers .. or examiners as NJ calls them, are terrific BS detectors.

You would be too if you listened to case after case after case after case, day in and day out.

Here's the thing though .. a lack of good sense which refuses to accept the responsibility and blame for that tiny little kernel that caused a separation from work is not exclusive to just the former employee ..

And a good and impartial hearing officer knows this. They are allowed wide discretion when it comes to judging credibility.

This is a huge responsibility if you ask me and one that is sometimes abused by some hearing officers when they allow their personal prejudices to enter into this judgment.

My point is that to make the unemployment appeal process work in your favor, you need to understand not only the validity of your own appeal or the opposing sides appeal, but the process and the procedures of appeal hearings .. so you know what you can do to win, how to represent yourself and get things on the record when something is amiss or incorrect.

Julia, I get the feeling that you have a solid understanding of this concept .. so I'm not worried about you prevailing. And you understand what I mean by an objective view of the facts.

But that is not something I believe to be true about most people. If I did .. I wouldn't see any value for what I'm attempting to bring with this website.

180 days .. that's a lot of overpayment .. for anyone that might have squeaked by with a crappy case .. just because the employer wasn't there to rebut.

Pay attention everyone to what I'm saying .. A hearing won primarily due to the non-attendance of the employer at the hearing .. doesn't really mean you've won until the deadline for appeal passes without an appeal. The risk is always the overpayment.

You need to understand why and how the decision can be sustained in your favor in case of reopening.

I wait to be regaled with what happens at your hearing Julia .. when the employer finally decides to appear and how you snared her in false documentation created after you had already been fired.

Chris

Feb 09, 2011
it just gets better
by: Julia

Chris,

The employer was the original appellant. She couldn't be available for the first scheduled appeals hearing, so the NJDOL dismissed the appeal without prejudice, then gave the employer 180 days to request a new date. I don't understand it either. It didn't seem very fair at all. If I couldn't make the hearing, I'm quite sure they wouldn't have given me the same courtesy. Needless to say, she requested a new date almost immediately, which was last week. She was late to the phone call, so the examiner didn't have time to hear the entire case. It has once again been adjourned and postponed until a later date...of which they have not given me yet. The good news is that I'm pretty sure the appeals examiner is smelling the BS, I just hope I get the same judge when we continue where we left off. I was able to obtain copies of the "evidence" she submitted for the hearing. I was right, in that she created documents using my name, only she wasn't smart enough to get the dates right. She sent emails to clients from my account the day I was fired, late in the afternoon. She has already stated for the record that I was fired first thing in the morning and I didn't have access to the business email accounts immediately after I was let go.

I'm still preparing myself for the appeal and I will let you know what happens.

Thanks again for your help and advice.

Feb 08, 2011
aDDITIONAL dOCUMENTS AFTER HEARING
by: Anonymous

I am in Florida and going thru' the exact same thing: I was laid off with the reason being the agency had no money: The employer appealed my filing stating misconduct: She submitted false docs for the hearing, all dated after the last day of work (one even stated a complaint for a time period before I was even hired) One ex-co-worker lied under oath that we had never been told there was no money but another is telling the truth. I won the appeal but I think she will now appeal that to the Commission with another set of false docs. In Florida tho' she has to prove the new docs could not have been found by simple due diligence in time for the 1st hearing. Since she has all the records in her office (naturally I have none) I'm thinking this won't work...unless she lost her whole office maybe??? I am waiting patiently but plan to contact the State Atty when its over (regardless of the outcome) for conspiracy to fraud charges against the boss and the co-worker. Hang on...it going to be a bumpy ride




Good for you. Personally, I think your employer shot a big hole in her credibility by submitting the docs that she submitted .. especially the complaint which was dated before your hire date.

If anyone has ever read about my experiences in an appellate dept. of a UI cost control co. and why I hated the job .. This type of employer is solely responsible for me feeling guilty all the time.

I would seriously like to know if anything comes of any fraud charges .. because I know some deserve it.

Chris - unemployment-tips.com

Dec 21, 2010
the whole thing is a mess
by: Julia

I did report her to the actual company she was hacking, but they never did anything about it. I'm so confused I don't know what to do at this point. According to my appeal examiner, my employer can not make the phone call for the scheduled appeal date so now she has 180 days to file a request for a new date. On top of everything I already told you, the employer contacted NJDOL and actually CHANGED the information she already reported regarding weeks worked and wages earned. They did a monetary re-determination based on the new, false information she gave them. Not only am I waiting to settle the original appeal, now they are saying I owe them almost $1,000 and my new weekly benefit rate is way lower than it should be. I have all of the pay stubs that prove what I really made and worked but now I have to appeal the monetary determination which could take months.



Sorry Julia,

I understand about having to appeal the monetary, but please explain to me about that 180 days to file a request for a new hearing date?

That is not making any sense to me .. whose appeal is this again??????

Dec 16, 2010
New Jersey Appeal Information
by: Chris - Unemployment-tips

Hi Julia,

I didn't have enough room to add all I wanted to add. I'm feeling like a little mild ranting and raving :)

See here for appeals info and how you obtain a subpoena in NJ.
They aren't the best of instructions. Make sure you use the links on the right.

If you ever decide you want to talk to me about specifics .. Let me know.

Hearing examiners are "usually" much brighter bulbs and excellent bullshit detectors, forget your experience with a deputy examiner that is probably quite new or maybe, just burnt out.

I would really like to be able to direct you to a hearing rep or a NJ unemployment attorney, but I can't because I had to add New Jersey to my list of "attorney states" .. I didn't know it should have been on the list.

My confusion came from the fact that I had absolutely no trouble assigning non-attorney reps located anywhere in the US to a NJ hearing.

It seems my confusion came from the fact that one of the CC companies I worked for is able to get around this little snafu by convincing NJ that the employer isn't paying for the representation, but that it's included as part of the service offered .. I'll I've got to say, is I hope I wasn't doing anything illegal when I had to call a NJ employer that had run out of free hearings to tell them it would cost 200 dollars for me to find a rep for them.

NJ has no issue with non-lawyer reps representing a party if they aren't paid, but they must be a NJ attorney if they are paid. A state will tell you that they are protecting the unemployed and employer alike from those who might take advantage .. but personally, I think this argument holds water similar to a wiffle ball.

The reason I am talking about reps and attorneys is because you believe your former employer will tamper with existing documents or forge documentation with a backdate and present it as real evidence. That's a concern you cannot not consider.

NJ must have a realtor board or a regulatory department .. shouldn't you report that you have knowledge that she is hacking competitors databases?


Dec 15, 2010
Thank you
by: Julia

Hi Chris,

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. I found your site very helpful during my initial claims interview and would recommend it to anyone.

First, I'm trying to get copies of the taped fact finding session along with the 25 pages she originally submitted but am having no luck getting NJDOL to give them to me. Do you have any idea how I would go about getting that information aside from calling them and speaking to people who give me the run around?

I am absolutely certain she would break the law to prevent me from collecting UI benefits. She uses her hacker to get into all kinds of other realtor databases to collect their client information. She also habitiually lies or "bends the numbers" as she likes to call it, to clients about the value of their homes so they list with her instead of other agents. Falsifying documents would not be beyond her. I am not worried about her changing dates on the documents she already sent, especially if I can get copies. I'm worried about her creating new false documents to help prove her misconduct case while I have no access to the documents or email account that would prove she lied.

How much validity would an examiner give new documents if she tried to submit them anyway? I know the first question I would ask is if they are so detrimental that they contributed to me getting fired, why weren't they presented originally?

My first examiner wasn't the brightest bulb on the shelf and I actually had to have a supervisor at NJDOL review and overturn her decision. She tried to deny my benefits for a reason that wasn't even given by my employer because she clearly wasn't paying attention during the interview. Another concern of mine is that I will get another examiner who doesn't care enough about her job to do it correctly and fairly.

This woman I used to work for not only solcited me from my previous job with promises of a higher salary and better treatment just to get access to my client database and marketing material, she has also ruined my previously outstanding reputation in the business and made it impossible for me to find work with another agent. I don't know what my family and I will do if my benefits are taken away and I can't find work.

Thanks again for your help,

Julia



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